U.S. TAXES FOR INTERNATIONAL ENTREPRENEURS AND EXPATS – 20th January 2021

 

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DERREN JOSEPH:

So I'm going to run through a few slides, probably not going to take me more than let's say about 20 minutes and afterwards you are free to ask questions. And that's
the part of the webinar that I actually really looked forward to, because I know that you guys are highly motivated. You came and you are a soupy because you have certain questions and it's an opportunity to open them up for discussion. There is a little box in the chat box below. Well, it's on my right, depending on what device you're using. So please feel free to put your questions in there. And once we get to the Q and a pot, we will go through them in the order in which we receive them. Alright. And on that note, I will start my short deck. Okay.
Okay. All right. Welcome everyone. So my name is Derren Joseph for those who do not know, and I am a part, I run a semi- autonomous US TAX team within a larger practice called Moores Rowland and is quite regional. So we have three offices across, I think, around 11 or 12 countries in Asia. So in Beijing all the way down to Australia. I have actually been sitting in and based in Singapore for over seven years now. I'm not in Singapore right now, but I've been based in Singapore for just over seven years. And of course, because I am a licensed by the us department of treasury, I'm legally required to say it, whatever we discussed here should not be construed as advice we have in general conversations around Gerald Principles, which I hope would empower you to choose the right advisory team, to help you to do make the right decisions in terms of tax planning, as well as compliance on the back end. There are those who we expect that, you know, you're going to come here with pen and paper and you're going to get all the info. Do you want to run back and do your tax returns? It certainly does not work that way. So we are not giving any tax advice. We were having a general conversation and nothing that I say here should be construed as encouraging you to pay less than your fair share of taxes in any jurisdiction in which you were exposed. So that's how we stay out of jail. So yeah.

You know how it goes. Okay. Okay. So let's jump right in. So for those who think that the U does not have the IRS in particular does not pursue people who are on the wrong end of the tax rules. Think again, it definitely does happen. These are two examples that I like to use, and we can come back to them later if there's any interest, but these are the takeaways. I want to talk about citizenship based taxation. I want to talk about, well, okay, your U the US is like one and two countries in the world and practices this extensively.

How do they find you? We are going to talk about that when we talk about FACA and then I'm going to talk about what your basic responsibilities are as a US person. And that's a little acronym that I developed called do your best BST. Band's estimated taxes, state taxes, and transfer taxes. And then we're going to touch on a stimulus payment because that's of interest to quite a few people at this point in time.Every one should be aware the US is one or two countries in the world that extensively TAXES you on your worldwide income, regardless of where you reside. The other one is Eretria and a, a tiny country in the horn of Africa, but they are incapable of enforcing that rule. But the US is definitely capable of enforcing that rule. So wherever you are a US taxpayer, now there are other countries that, I mean, the reality is that there are many other countries that do it as well. So because of certain fallback rules, depending on how that person exits the stair country and at a place, definitely two Europe to the other countries that are English speaking developed countries. So I'm talking about the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. They definitely do it as well, depending on how you, the taxpayer would have left on Europe in Japan as well. So anyway, we were talking about the US, but my point is the US is not alone in other countries who are looking at what the US is doing. And they are increasingly tightening their rules to follow

A little spooked. So, okay. Right. You get it that even though you're outside of the US, maybe for months, maybe for years, you are still required to pay taxes. And then the common question is, Hey, how's it going to know, how is anybody going to know how much I am earning that I am earning outside? And that's where the factor comes in. So FACA is a far in a context compliance act, which despite serious misunderstandings online is not a, Tax what it is. It's a framework for information exchange. So the US government has signed bilateral agreements where countries all over the world, and these countries have passed legislation domestically, which mandates their domestic financial institutions to go through their books and identify anyone that they suspect of being US exposed. Now, obviously, sometimes, you know, I have more than one passport soon. And many of you soon, you may use your other passport to open financial accounts, including brokerage accounts. Or even if you do that, and you deny that you US expose if that financial institution suspect's, and then a number of industries that we can get into, if that financial institution even suspects that your US exposed, perhaps without your knowledge, they may report you. So that's the check and balance in the system. Just like when you're in the U S you know, you get a 10 99, you get a W2, you got a copy, the IRS gets a copy of a server. So the IRS knows what you're up to when you are outside of the US every financial institution that you would commonly interact with, whether you know it or not, they are probably going to report, you know, there are a few countries that have not signed FATCA.

So there will be like, you know, around North Korea, Cuba, but the ones that you would typically end up in there probably have  signed. And that includes China including Russia. So be aware
that you're being tracked is a point, what does a us person, and, you know, may seem obvious, but some people are unaware because we get to these questions all the time. Obviously, if
you're a US passport holder, it does not matter how long you spend on the side of the US.

You are required to find, pay your taxes if you are a green card holder. So you're a lawful permanent resident of the US just like a citizen, you're quiet to find out a bit TAXES as well.
Even if that green card expires, or you lost it, or whatever, you are still a permanent resident, and you are required to file and pay Taxes substantial presence. And how this has been an issue for non-Americans who have been through no fault of their own, been trapped in the US during the, the health crisis, because, you know, the way I remember, like sometime last year, there were like a hundred thousand Australians who can not get back in to Australia, because flights who have blocked now there down to about 88,000 Australians, I've heard a couple days ago who can not get back in to Australia. So it is a thing so many people can not go home and you may be trapped in a US by virtue of being in the U S for a certain number of days. You're a US taxpayer. So congratulations, apologies. We have accidental American. So people who may be born to at least one US parent, even though they may not have registered the birth with the embassy, they don't have that certificate of birth abroad. They don't have a social, they are still US taxpayers. So, Oh, those who might have been born in the U S and laughed as a toddler, a child is still a US taxpayer. And then the last one is something not very well known. If you're married to a non American on a non US exposed person, there are some conditions under which you can elect for that non US spouse to be treated as a US taxpayer. And it may be to your advantage. If anyone's interested in a way we can take a deeper dive into that later, but I'll just mention in passing and the responsibilities, I'm a US person. So Obviously you will be subject to all of the things we have to call roughly three types of Taxes, where you can slice and dice taxes in different ways. But let's say in general income taxes, that includes capital gains on real estate or stocks or whatever. So income taxes, the gift Taxes. So, yeah, buy giving a gift to someone else. It may expose you to gift taxes. So that's something that is not very well-known. Especially if you are in a relationship within a non US person, its going back and forth needs to be reported. And then of course there are state taxes. So at the time, and well, even if you're not domiciled in the USA, by having US sites and assets, then may be
subject to us to stay tax is, and if you aren't domiciled, then you will have white assets subject to us as a state. Taxes even though you live outside and the state taxes are a bit not well
understood. So you can take a deep dive into that later if you so wish. One thing I want to highlight though, that would be US.

It seems counterintuitive because you'd think, you know, the IRSis all about getting paid, right? It's all about getting that money actually. No, because when you look at the penalties and the, where the prosecution happened, there seem to be more interested in information. Then they are actually collecting revenue. What do I mean by that? So you are required to report,
I mentioned gifts, but you also are required to report your financial assets. So your bank accounts outside of the U S your brokerage accounts, you used to trust your pen, certain pension funds, or certain, you know, whatever mutual funds outside the US so if you don't report financial assets, for example, and again, that's, that has nothing to do. Typically I could, but
typically it's not about revenue, just having a savings account. Cause when a, like a zero interest rate environment, anyway, it could be a penalty that is as high as 50% of the unreported
balance, plus the jail time. And you can go to jail. Whereas if  you didn't pay your taxes well, yeah. Penalties and interest. So reporting is huge. And another thing I want to draw your
attention to is the idea that within the last few years, the state department and the treasury department had started exchanging information in there now to speak to each other previously. They did not. And what does that mean? So like a couple of years ago, we had our first case where we've had an ex spot in Malaysia and she had an outstanding tax liability. She was not paying attention to her Taxes and to be fair, statistically speaking, many people who live outside of the US that sometimes slips off the radar, they do not stay on top of that. Taxes well, in any way. So she goes to the U S embassy to renew her passport, and then suddenly, I guess, they typed the, or whatever, or on the system, and then oo, well, yeah, it's, you know, and they withhold the passport that she has just handed in to be renewed. And they said, I'm sorry, but you can't  get a new passport until you resolve your IRS issues. And she's in a foreign country by herself. So this happens. It's real. It's not just a, like some sort of conspiracy theory on the internet. It's real estate department and treasury do speak to each other. So when you're abroad and the last thing you want to do is be trapped outside of the U S without a travel document. So stay on top of your taxes.

Okay. Oops. Right. So now we get into, oops, I kind of jumped over right now. We get into what I think of it. The basic responsibility is the acronym that you can use to take away from this will be, do your best. So best be your bank accounts. And when I say bank, that's really a financial account. So all of your financial accounts be aware that you probably would need to check whether they need to be reported to the IRS. So bank accounts or report them the penalties for not being compliant on a dif EA estimated taxes. Obviously when you're in the US, you can get paid any, if you got paid in a W2 taxes, withheld every  fortnight every month, however often you've paid. And when you are outside, if you are not subject to withholding, the IRS does not like to wait to get its money. So they do not want to wait until April 15. So you should be looking and making periodic payments, or at least quarterly or to the IRS. So that's something that we work with your tax professional, do the calculations be compliant. Estate tax issues are something also overlooked too often. Most States in the US are domicile States. What does that mean? Under certain circumstances, even though, you know, longer, is it in the States for months or years, you miss, still be deemed to be a tax resident and the state. And the only thing will have them pair traveling all over the world. But at some point in time, if you ever returned to the US, they will be throwing the big village U and we've had that situation where Clients have returned to the US app to expat assignments abroad. And they got a big Bill's thrown at them, but we need to work with them to prove to the state that they were domiciled elsewhere. So it helps to be proactive. And in that regard, speak to your tax advisors, find out how to break the domicile. BEFORE the States. I remember the federal government IRS and the franchise tax boards. They speak to each other. So information to share back and forth T transfer. TAXES mentioned that BEFORE gift TAXES whether you're giving a gift to receiving gifts, speak to your tax advisor, is this reportable an estate taxes that's, you know, for those who are high net worth planning, that is something we can definitely that's one of the forms of taxation that can be mitigated by proper planning in advance.

Is there a mixed one? I'm just a brief word on the stimulus payments. This is how to quantify citizens and green card holders. There have been two rounds of payments. There was $1,200 for one last year. I think it was probably around May, June or so. And now you should have received your $600 a year. If you didn't know, there are portals on the IRS website where you can check up on it, please check the website. Even when there are any issues, a website has loads of information. Is that all right? So if you did not receive the $1,200 last year, it's not too late. There is a pot on a new 10 40 TAXES because we've started doing 10 forties for 2020 already, where you can indicate if you did receive it, it needs to be declared. It's not going to be taxed, but you still need to declare it. And if you did not receive it, you will receive it in the form of a credit. This is the one from last year. So if it is that you're gonna get a refund, there will be higher if it is that you have a tax bill, the bill can be reduced by the amount of the credit. So make sure you work with your tax adviser to show you to take advantage of that. Again, just calling on a website, pretty comprehensive. It's unlikely that you have an issue that can not be handled either with the website on your own or in concert with your chosen tax professional.

Okay. So a quick note on a filing requirements, If changes like lead for a year and it's worth, always keep an eye on it. For those who may not be making much money, do note that, depending on your situation, you may think, well, you know, I don't make much money. I don't need to file one in certain circumstances and the threshold for filing is $5. So again, depending on which category you fall into, that just came from the 10 40 instructions. That's just a screen grab. So if you made at least $5 last year, you may have to file. Check out the IRS website, speak to your tax advisor. It's just not worth getting in the wrong Saturday for us. Okay. And, you know, just call out some of the phase outs because our clients tend to be higher income earners. And then they come to us and say, Hey, how come I didn't get my stimulus payment? That's because it's the price of your success. You made too much money. And therefore either the amount was reduced or completely eliminated. So it's worth bearing that in mind, if you did not receive it, this could potentially be the reason why, and that's it for my deck. And  I'm going to stop sharing now on my other laptop. Great. And as promised 20 minutes in, so now it's over to you guys. If you have any questions, please type it in the little box below.  Let me have a look, What I'm going to do as well. What was the term you had on the slide for spouses that do not hold up a green card? I Mark. So a spouse who does not hold a green card is a non well, it's a non well, I'm assuming she doesn't have a US passport, nor does. You're sorry. I'm not a dozen. I don't wanna assume this is a sheet. So you, if you have, your spouse does not have a green card or your spouse does not have a us passport then in the us tax and tax lingo is a nonresident alien spouse in the NRA, a spouse, but under a certain circumstances, you can to have your spouse treated as if he or she did have US citizenship or a green card. And that's one of the six or a section six, a one, three G election. Some people ask, well, under what circumstance would you want to bring your spouse? Who's not American into the U S Tax net. We see the circumstances. Typically it can be more, but the two typical ones that we see are simply to save money when you are in the us. I mean, criticising, as you will be in the US tax code, and it works more favorably when you file jointly. If you were a married couple, if you file jointly, you will get more preferential tax rates.

Then if you file separately, it's just the way it is. So for some couples, even though the spouse is not an American, you may elect to have them treat it as a US person on a sexist section six to one 3g, or to get that benefit. And then the second reason is a as part of your tax planning and as part of your strategy, because some people would eventually want to file for a green card to bring their spouses to the us and understand that when your spouse arrives in the U S they are off the grid, they don't, they don't exist, right? Just, you know, leasing a car, passing, a simple credit check for, for rent or for whatever it may be. They won't because they do not exist. Whereas if you, if they take a section 61 3g election a year or two before applying for the green card and getting one successfully, that helps because then they exist and they get a tax ID, the file tax returns there, the income is there for anyone to see. So it would help in terms of the immigration process, just a in, in practical terms. So those are the two circumstances. And in which we see that election being made scrolling down, I'm a US citizen in Portugal on a, how familiar are you with the Portuguese tax laws? I'm in, I'm just outside of Lisbon Portugal. So I am pretty familiar with Portugal as well.

AND if you look at our website, which is HTJ Tax, you will see that we do give a webinar on Portugal Taxes for us. Expats US Portugal TAXES. I think we do that either next week or the following week. So have a look at our website HTJ to our Tax there, I partner with my colleague who is a Portuguese qualified tax attorney AND and we can take a deeper dive into the dynamics between the US and Portugal. So it should do it in our Tax the next one. Or there are some general guidelines to mitigate taxes. If one has properties and investment in the U S but a willing to relinquish US citizenship, absolutely what we do or what we would recommend you do you consider doing is engage with pre expatriation planning. So the process of giving up your US a citizenship, we had it, we do two or three every single month. In fact, when a client who did it just last week in a country in Southeast Asia. So definitely BEFORE, especially, most of our clients are higher net worth. So this particular client, their, what we call a cupboard XBox, EA a US person who may be subject to the exit. TAX because they, the net assets, an excess of $2 million, or the income from the past few years have been over a certain threshold there, you know, the taxable income. So as a result, they're covered Expats with definitely pre expatriation planning is a must. It's not negotiable. You just have to do it because things like this with your investments, if you have 401k, is if you have a pension, if you have a pension fund, it would be affected in the, the status of those funds will be impacted by you giving up your citizenship or your residency.

So it's definitely something to do. What we do with our clients is we, well, back in the days, we did a whiteboard, but not everything has on zoom. We pull up an Excel sheet with them. We
share screens and they list every single asset. They own everything, everyone in the world. And we say, okay, well, what are the values? So we understand the quantum that we are looking at,  and we walk through them one by one, when you get this up, this will be the impact on that asset. And therefore, if you are okay with impact on that asset, thumbs up or leave it, if the impact is negative then thumbs down and lets do some tax mitigation. And so we can do some tax planning around it. So itis absolutely important if you are a, you know, especially if you are in a risk or you are at the level of a cupboard EXPAT who may be subject to the exit, Tax pre expatriation tax planning is a must moving on.

Okay, thank you. Do social security payments get taxed in Portugal the answer is it depends. And the answer to everything. And then of course it depends on rights, you know, Hey, that's
how the law works, right? So Portugal has something called the  program, which is a non habitual residence and what that historically meant. And many European countries that are very intimate in the UK is a <inaudible> in Spain, there's a backup Tax, you know, Belgium has its own.

Everyone. Italy has it, Switzerland has it. So most countries have it. Portugal is in special ed. And historically what I meant is that the income that was a row that was rising outside of Portugal will not be subject to taxes in Portugal, lots of exceptions. These things are highly nuanced and there's so much misinformation on, especially like Facebook groups and stuff that it's bizarre that people believe that nonsense. But anyway, unfortunately that rule changed and towards the beginning of 2020.

So if you grandfathered in, so you had an HR status before the rules changed, the answer is no, it wouldn't be taxed in Portugal. If you got an antitrust status in Portugal, like I did after the rules changed, then unfortunately yes, it will be subject to the 10% tax. So, but of course we take a deeper dive into that in the Portugal US TAX webinar than we do with Augusta who is a Portugal qualified tax attorney. So you can imitate are Tax and then you can RSVP to that one, moving on US citizen, looking to buy an investor outside of the country in a new business outside of the us will have people on this for several years to offset capital gains made in the U S well, we would with income income has a different character. So for example, and then the, the different ways of slicing and dicing it, as we mentioned earlier, but less for the, let's say for the purposes of this question, we will say that there is earned income. So the income that you can get in return for services rendered or good that you sold or whatever the case meant to be. So there's an earning come in to this unearned income, which is commonly known as passive income. So there will be interest, interest, dividends, royalty payment, and stuff like that. A real rent could be, could move between arundo and learning income. So, the point is that if it is that you have invested in an asset and income producing asset outside of the US, which will have people losses. If the income producing asset is in the form of, for example, a business, a business is a separate legal entity in law with rights and responsibilities of its own. It is the legal person. So for example, Steve jobs was fired from Apple. So even though you are the controlling shareholder in a company, the company can fire you. The company can Sue you. So it's a separate person who is there for the purposes.

Elements of that company is a performance in our company and the company is making a people lost to people at a loss. That's the company. That's not U unless there are exceptions to that, obviously, because the answer to everything is it depends, but generally speaking. So the fact that the company is making a PayPal off does not mean that it transfers to your 10 40. It doesn't. Now, if it is that you sell, Oh, you have liquidity events and you exit the company. So you sell your shares and this shares a soul at a loss, then not a loss can be used to offset, which will be a capital loss, obviously will be used to offset capital gains.

So, you know, the offset needs to be in terms of it's good character. So yeah, of course they know the process of investing into a company abroad is a, it's a, it's a big decision. That's a big step. So as always, we suggest you take the tax advice 'cause there are frequently unintended consequences. There is something called guilty, a global intangible, low tax income tax There are different anti-deferral rules. They have rules. Basically the rules are that are designed by the IRS to make, to almost punish someone who invests in a certain type of income producing asset outside of the U S. So just to make sure that it passes that smell test, you should speak to a tax advisor before you invest, and then the way in which you invest, you know, how are you going to invest? Are you going to do it? And you're going to set up a C Corp in the U S or an LLC in the U S and then invest, are you going to do something with a BVI or Cayman?

Or is it a fund, you know, or is it a fund of funds? Is it real estate? Well, you know, sitting in real estate. So we have a client speaking to two weeks ago, buying some real estate and France, and they using a certain entity structure in France because it's more tax efficient, same in Bali reclined, and Bali's buying something in Bali. So it's not just a matter of writing a check, here's your cash, give me stuff you want to do in a way that minimizes any negative, potential, negative impact going in into the future.

And we're not talking about taxes, but also potential liability issues. So take advice, moving on, scrolling down. Mmm. Do you all have US steel expertise and the tax free? Where can I find information in that? I currently live in the U S and P or to have some of my income earned only in the US if I had her in an income and Australia, or would I need to pay us in, or do Ideclare bla bla bla bla bla, the claim with us?  superannuation plan, so we do, we have a partner and we have a Partner from that we worked with in Australia. So, I commonly deal with Australia and tax issues. A partner for him is one of the top 10 accounting firms and Australia and New Zealand. So yeah, they are, they're pretty clued up on the Ozzy side. And yes, there was an Australian, a US tax treaty, and you can find that on the IRS website and it's a, as follows the model treaty. So it is nothing unusual or special about it. But the point is that Australia is in the world light income, unless you sell the ties with Australia, the ETO will chase you to find you. But if  it is at your property resonant in the us, the U only paying taxes in Australia, on your, as the source of income, not on your worldwide income, only in your eyes, the source income and the US however, you will be needing to declare and pay taxes on your worldwide income, including declaring that super, you need to declare the super of course, without even having to invoke the treaty. You're not going to be taxed twice. It's, it's, it's rare, it's possible, but it's rare to be taxed twice. Once your tax team, who knows what they're doing. If your tax team does not know what you're doing, all of that Seraph, you may think that all Accountants are created equal. That's the same thing as thinking that our doctors are created equal. Therefore, I should go to a neurologist to get a cardiological exam. Know I mean, they are both doctors, but they specialize in different things, right?

For it to deal with international tax issues, you need to go with a team that understands International TAXES Jews. So anyway, just cutting to the chase. Yes, you declare your worldwide income and you need to declare a super and everything that you have in Australia on your us tax returns on the Australian tax returns, planning, your eyes are a source of income. Moving down. Everything okay. I was born in the U S was there until, until I was a child and never claimed citizenship in the us. OK. I'm going to do this so I can read this properly. Okay.

So the claim to citizenship in the U S and have always been a citizen of another country in SE Asia and always lived there a couple of years ago, I was at a government delegation to visit the US. And when I visited the US embassy to get a visiting visa, I was ox instead to claim citizenship, and it was almost refused entry or otherwise that's correct. However, to be in a government allegation, I was allowed a one time entry visa, or as a citizen of the other, Southeast Asian country, and did not sign the citizenship form, which are partly, also consisted of the firm agreeing to pay your taxes. Since I had been wondering, what can you do to resolve that situation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? The, the, the, the thing is, is that okay? So, like, for example, if you have a passport to country X and you lose your passport, it's  stolen, or you just lost it, the fact that you don't have a password, does that mean that because of the stolen or lost or whatever does that mean? You're supposed to be a citizen? Of course not. So the citizens, they, the password is evidence of citizenship.

The passport doesn't constitute citizenship. So the absence of a passport doesn't mean that you are no longer a citizen. So a, the present there in the case study for that, I guess, popular is the prime minister of Great Britain right now, the bar's Johnson. If you didn't know, he was born in New York and he left as a child. And, you know, he ignored his US tax obligations until he became the mayor of London. And he tried to sell a, one of his properties in London and the IRS came knocking. Hey, remember, US. So, the point of that is just a reminder. I think I mentioned it earlier, accidental American's and stuff like that by law. And this is not just the US any country of which you, a citizen by law, when you are entering the country, and you are asked to the sun by lo you must enter on the passport for that country. So if you have multiple passports, like many of us do here, I mean, it's a thing, right? When you are entering your country in a country, in which you're a citizen, you must declare that citizenship when you leave and you're going somewhere else, you can do what you like. Right? So there was absolutely a right to deny you entry into the U S unless you were going to produce a US passport to enter. And if it is actually, it's an offense, if you were to use another passport and deny us citizenship on entry, but for me to get rid of the US path, to get rid of the U S citizenship, it doesn't matter whether you have a social. It doesn't matter whether you have a gun to a certificate, a birth abroad doesn't matter whether you are still a US citizen, you need to renounce  it.

And as I mentioned, we do, I mean, we do two or three people each month giving up is giving them this citizenship, and we can help you with that. But essentially it would involve the two trucks giving up your citizenship. There was the immigration side, and there's a tax side. The immigration site is super simple. I give the pigs, you know, intimately familiar with getting it up in, let's say Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines or whatever.

So you can go on the website and Singapore, for example, you go on the website and you'll make an appointment and you go in and you say, I want to relinquish my citizenship. They get you to sign something. If you have a passport, they take it off to you. If you have a travel document, they will take it from you. And it's dated the data on which you have walked in and you have surrendered. Now, you don't get the piece of paper that signifies that you've lost.

Your S got a CLA and a certificate of a loss of nationality. They will give it to you immediately. It needs to go to Washington, to the department, and then they will stop it. But it's backdated to the day that you entered the embassy. So that's, the immigration side is super simple. The tax side is where it kind of gets a bit complicated. You declare on all your paperwork that you had been compliant with. US tax rules for the previous five years, which means that if you have not been compliant with US tax rules, you need to retroactively file the last five years tax returns and six years Fbars and for he foreign bank account report.

Remember we mentioned that you need to declare foreign bank accounts. So once you do that, we do it on something called the streamlined program, which in theory, once you qualify allows
you to, with penalties, you pay and trestle TAXES do you, but at least Know penalties, right? Because you can follow it voluntarily. So you get your TAXES cleared up and we do it concurrently with the immigration side. And once you do both of those things together, you're free and clear. If you are a covered EXPAT, as you mentioned earlier, then you may be subject to the exit tax.

We need to do some pre expatriation planning, but once that's put to bed, you can do what you need to do and get rid of it. But you must formally relinquish it. Otherwise, even though you don't have a passport or whatever, you are still a US citizen and subject to taxes on your role at all. So moving down, I paid tax on the interest and dividends that I earn in Australia.
Right?

Okay. Definitely. You need to pay your taxes when you have a worldwide income both countries in the US at least let's talk about the US because fascial is a bit complicated right now. So are you declare your worldwide income? But remember we said that US taxation, we use international tax is counter intuitive. What do we mean by that? And we mean that you would think that the RS is all about collecting its money, right? Or getting paid, but as evidence, by the way, penalties are levied and the way, and the magnitude of the penalties, it appears as if not declaring INTERNATIONAL assets, incurs more penalties than not paying taxes.

It seems weird, but that's the way it is. So you would, you need to pay is not new, but just everyone needs to pay special attention to financial assets, assets in general, and can producing assets in general, but financial assets in particular that loud outside of the U S including bank accounts, including pension plans, like the super including mutual funds, do unit trust any sort of investment the eco outside of the us, or take advice, or does it need to be reported to the, to the US government?

So, yeah. Okay. That's it. Any other questions? Nope. okay, If there are no further questions, I want to thank you for coming this evening and this morning AND and, you know, put in spitting in a webinar, please have a look at each. She did not Tax well, we have future webinars coming up. We have done Ireland recently.

We are doing Spain and Portugal. All the things we do in Spain tomorrow Portugal may be next week or the following week. We did, we do one every so often for a location, independent professionals call themselves digital nomads. No, we haven't done anything on Australia yet, because, and it's something that we can look at and I can speak to my colleagues in Australia, but typically there's a low demand for Australia because there are so many U S Australia tax specialists that is rare for someone not to have a team that they're working with. But yeah, no, we don't do any for, we haven't done any Indonesia either or not recently, there was the last time, the last time we did one was with the American chamber of commerce and  Indonesia. So we did that last towards the third quarter for the last year. So none come up, but we can reach out to them seeing whether we want to do it or whether it's worth doing something coming up.

Well, we have quite a number of Clients in Indonesia colleagues in Indonesia, where the office is more rural than office and Indonesia is the fifth largest accounting from, in Indonesia, a main office in Jakarta. And this is a satellite office in Bali. So, you know, major Clients, including the US government. We, pretty much on top of Indonesia and Tax issues, including the new omnibus bill. And there's been a lot of tax reform in Indonesia.

So if you have any Indonesia us tax issues, please feel free to reach out to us directly. And Team a head of TAX in Jakarta, Dickie, and myself. We can definitely work with you on it. Similarly, if you have any questions on Australia, please reach out to me directly and myself in one of the, the, the team members in, in Sydney and Brisbane can, can work with you to make sure it's put to bed and the right way. So, yeah. And some of the questions.Thank you very much for your time. Have a good morning, evening day, depending on where you are. Bye.

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